Religious

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

The only real argument I have with you stems from your criticism of other religions...and your habit of calling people "unbelievers", just because they disagree with the Christian view of things.

But to him, they ARE unbelievers. Cut and dried, no holds barred, hardcore unbelievers...that's just the way it is...

Those are his beliefs and those like him. Would you rather he lie or sugarcoat it?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

When did this happen?

Often? Now, you're going to wax all innocent? Ask Hcap. We all know he's as honest as the day in long and will admit to it....along with a justification, of course.

Boxcar

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

But to him, they ARE unbelievers. Cut and dried, no holds barred, hardcore unbelievers...that's just the way it is...

Those are his beliefs and those like him. Would you rather he lie or sugarcoat it?

Try to get this guys. I know it's hard for YOU...but really it's simple to understand.

Common sense should tell you that each and every one of us believes in something. We have people on this forum who are are atheists, humanists, materialists, rationalists, pragmatists, agnostics, religious Jews, Christians, perhaps JWs, Mormons, etc, etc., etc. The philosophies and worldviews in this world seem endless. Therefore, since only people with very low IQs walk around believing nothing, the rest of us members of the human race are all believers in something. So, in this universal sense, there are virtually no unbelievers in the world. Score one for the PAs of this world. But wait...this was only round one.

Round Two: But all different religions (especially the theistic ones) would consider any outsider who does not hold to their particular set of doctrines, tenets or creeds to be considered an unbeliever from those religions' peculiar perspective. And they would be quite right in this more restrictive sense. Therefore, we have a paradox here, don't we? On one hand, the world is filled with believers in something. On the other, the world is as equally filled with unbelievers from the perspective of believers of a particular faith.

So, wouldn't you know (well obviously not) that the bible speaks to this issue from this latter sense, which makes perfectly good sense to most rational, straight-thinking, sensible people? Please see: Lk 12:46; 1Cor 6.6; 10:27; 14:22,23; 2Cor 6:14. And these are only the passages that employ the term "unbelievers".

In the singular form, see: 1Cor 7:12; 14:24; 2Cor 6:15; 1Tim 5:8.

Do you still have any questions about this exceedingly profound paradox of life? Or are you, PA, confused as to why this believer doesn't speak to the universal side of the coin of faith?

Boxcar

[PaceAdvantage]

I'm just telling it like it is. Anyone who doesn't believe in YOUR brand of religion is an UNBELIEVER...to YOU...and those like YOU.

Why make something so simple so complicated?

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by Show Me the Wire

Thaskalos you have me confused. If you belong to the Orthodox faith you are not included in the general definition of Eastern philosophy. You have the Eucharist and your church is centered on Christ.

Eastern philosophy is generally defined by its philosophy of life and its mysticism and usually includes, but not limited too Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, etc. and not the Eastern Orthodox churches.

I apologize for the confusion.

I was born a Greek Orthodox, but I currently belong to no organized religious faith.

My search for the truth has taken me far and wide...and I have sat at the feet of Buddhist meditation teachers, enlightened Yogis, and Taoist masters.

I embrace no religion, and I reject none. To me...there is a central message which unites them all...the way all seemingly separate rivers must invariably pour into the same ocean.

I am sure that if the Buddha, Jesus and Lao Tzu ever got together...they would all lovingly embrace as brothers.

There are many religions...but they all represent one truth.

It's just that this truth sometimes gets lost in the interpretation...

As for me...I have had brief glimpses of this truth...but it has eluded me for the most part.

So, my search continues...

[Show Me the Wire]

Thank you for your reply Thaskalos. I am pleased for you that you experienced a glimpse of this truth.

I ask this question, seeking your perspective; What is this universal truth the many religions represent? Is it compassion, love for our fellow human brothers or that we all go to the grave (the many rivers empty into one ocean)?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

I'm just telling it like it is. Anyone who doesn't believe in YOUR brand of religion is an UNBELIEVER...to YOU...and those like YOU.

Why make something so simple so complicated?

The better question would have been: Why do you complain about something that is so simple and commonly understood by the world of how people of a faith look at all others in the world?

The bible considers people like you to be unbelievers, so why shouldn't I? Give me one rational reason. Out of some perverse idea you have of religious-correctness?

Boxcar

[Show Me the Wire]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

Yes...cheering and praising him as he entered Jerusalem on the back of a donkey? Is that what you're talking about?

And then screaming crucify him, crucify him.

In fairness it was not all of the Jews, who cheered and praised when Christ entered Jerusalem, that demanded his death.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Try to get this guys. I know it's hard for YOU...but really it's simple to understand.

Common sense should tell you that each and every one of us believes in something. We have people on this forum who are are atheists, humanists, materialists, rationalists, pragmatists, agnostics, religious Jews, Christians, perhaps JWs, Mormons, etc, etc., etc. The philosophies and worldviews in this world seem endless. Therefore, since only people with very low IQs walk around believing nothing, the rest of us members of the human race are all believers in something. So, in this universal sense, there are virtually no unbelievers in the world. Score one for the PAs of this world. But wait...this was only round one.

Round Two: But all different religions (especially the theistic ones) would consider any outsider who does not hold to their particular set of doctrines, tenets or creeds to be considered an unbeliever from those religions' peculiar perspective. And they would be quite right in this more restrictive sense. Therefore, we have a paradox here, don't we? On one hand, the world is filled with believers in something. On the other, the world is as equally filled with unbelievers from the perspective of believers of a particular faith.

So, wouldn't you know (well obviously not) that the bible speaks to this issue from this latter sense, which makes perfectly good sense to most rational, straight-thinking, sensible people? Please see: Lk 12:46; 1Cor 6.6; 10:27; 14:22,23; 2Cor 6:14. And these are only the passages that employ the term "unbelievers".

In the singular form, see: 1Cor 7:12; 14:24; 2Cor 6:15; 1Tim 5:8.

Do you still have any questions about this exceedingly profound paradox of life? Or are you, PA, confused as to why this believer doesn't speak to the universal side of the coin of faith?

Boxcar

We "unbelievers" don't care what the bible calls us, Boxcar...because we don't believe that the bible is the final authority on religious matters. This is what you have a hard time understanding.

This thread is not only about Christianity and the bible...it's about religion in general. But you -- with your know-it-all attitude and your constant mocking of other religions -- have DOMINATED this thread...and have made it seem as if Christianity is the only rational religion out there...and the bible is the only legitimate "Holy Book".

If we don't believe in your anthropomorphic version of God...then we don't believe in God at all...and if we are not Christians, then we are "unbelievers", or "irreligious"...as another "Christian" poster put it.

If this thread was titled "Christianity"...then no one could blame you for judging us from the bible's perspective.

But the thread is titled "Religious". . .so a little restraint on your part is warranted, in my opinion.

On the other hand...if mocking other people's religious beliefs does something for you...then carry on...

[Show Me the Wire]

Okay, let us discuss religion, instead of attacking boxcar. Before, I involved myself in this supposedly reasonable discussion hcap was attacking boxcar about his stance regarding creation and his belief GOD can do anything. There was attacks on the Bible, because it alluded to miracles, etc. BUT NO SUBSTANCE regarding religion except affirmative statements, without any detail to illustrate the validity of the statement.

All my questions regarding the substance of alternate religious beliefs were meet with silence. So if you want to discuss start discussing the substance of your beliefs. A really good place to start is answering my last question.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by Show Me the Wire

Okay, let us discuss religion, instead of attacking boxcar. Before, I involved myself in this supposedly reasonable discussion hcap was attacking boxcar about his stance regarding creation and his belief GOD can do anything. There was attacks on the Bible, because it alluded to miracles, etc. BUT NO SUBSTANCE regarding religion except affirmative statements, without any detail to illustrate the validity of the statement.

All my questions regarding the substance of alternate religious beliefs were meet with silence. So if you want to discuss start discussing the substance of your beliefs. A really good place to start is answering my last question.

Christian beliefs are widely known, and they don't need much explaining...whereas Eastern religious beliefs are totally unknown to most westerners.

How can I begin to explain these beliefs to you, in a format such as this?

It would take me forever...

[Show Me the Wire]

As I said start with your statement all religions and philosophies teach one universal truth.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

We "unbelievers" don't care what the bible calls us, Boxcar...because we don't believe that the bible is the final authority on religious matters. This is what you have a hard time understanding.

Understood. Nor did I say that you should care, did I? But COMMON SENSE should tell you that a believer of one faith will always look at believer's of another, as an unbeliever. Muslims do. Jews do. Christians do. Mormons do,, etc., etc. Unless you believe in all things, all religions, all philosophies then guess what: You're an unbeliever in the ones you don't. Learn it. Love it. And live it.

This thread is not only about Christianity and the bible...it's about religion in general. But you -- with your know-it-all attitude and your constant mocking of other religions -- have DOMINATED this thread...and have made it seem as if Christianity is the only rational religion out there...and the bible is the only legitimate "Holy Book".

Well...it is. Biblical faith is a rational faith because it's built upon knowing the object of that faith and having a personal relationship with that object. The fact that a major theme in the bible is love also supports my premise because of the three required components to love.

If we don't believe in your anthropomorphic version of God...then we don't believe in God at all...and if we are not Christians, then we are "unbelievers", or "irreligious"...as another "Christian" poster put it.

And if you don't believe that anthopomorphisms are requited figures of speech to help the finite mind to understand the infinite mind, then I would suggest such arrogance is paramount to making yourself out to be a god.

If this thread was titled "Christianity"...then no one could blame you for judging us from the bible's perspective.

I do not judge you. You have only two judges. You, who have already judged yourself to be unworthy of God great gift salvation, and then Jesus Christ himself.

But the thread is titled "Religious". . .so a little restraint on your part is warranted, in my opinion.

Restraint on what? You're upset because I poked some irreverent fun at Eastern "isms" with Hcap? But you never had any problem blaspheming the God of the bible every way but loose by constantly implying that he's either a liar or a fool or is not a personal God or he's incapable of getting his truth straight, or blaming him for screwing up creation, etc., etc., etc. Where has your restraint been on all your fallacious arguments or criticisms, most of which have been non sequiturs to boot? How have you bridled all your sophistries? I have borne very patiently with you and other skeptics here.

On the other hand...if mocking other people's religious beliefs does something for you...then carry on...

How about we make a deal: You present genuine, logically sound criticisms or arguments against orthodox Christianity and I'll respect whatever it is you think you believe? (And I don't even know what that may be because you have, yet, to make any cogent, coherent statements on what it is that you believe and why.)

Boxcar
P.S. Have you considered founding a new religion -- maybe something along the lines of the Bahai faith -- perhaps you could call it the T.U.B. Foundation Temple of Universal Believism? That way I'd be hard-pressed to call you an unbeliever.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Christian beliefs are widely known, and they don't need much explaining...whereas Eastern religious beliefs are totally unknown to most westerners.

Is that why there are probably more books written about Christianity than any other faith? I have over 400 books in my personal library alone, and still borrow other Christians' books to read! If fact, my library, compared to some is quite modest.

How can I begin to explain these beliefs to you, in a format such as this?

It would take me forever...

Warning: Constructive Criticism Alert. This means then that you're already off to an inauspicious start. Recently, I posted what the major elements to the Gospel message is -- in one relatively short post.

I know Christians who have come to know the Lord and accept God's gospel offer of the free gift of eternal life by reading very small 4 to 6 page tracts. This speaks to the deeply profound simplicity to the Gospel. The Gospel isn't rocket science.

Now, you chastised me for poking some fun at Hcap's beliefs. Hint: If you want to be taken seriously, then you're going to have to learn to summarize the core message to your belief system in an understandable matter. You just got done shouting at me that the title to this thread is "religious", yet now you turn around and tell us that you really can't sum up your religion or religious beliefs in this format? It appears you're wanting this both ways. You want a lot more "fair and balanced ecumenism" in this thread because evangelical Christianity has been dominating, yet when it's your turn up to bat, you're going to tell us that the ball is too hard to hit in this park?

Boxcar

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Understood. Nor did I say that you should care, did I? But COMMON SENSE should tell you that a believer of one faith will always look at believer's of another, as an unbeliever. Muslims do. Jews do. Christians do. Mormons do,, etc., etc. Unless you believe in all things, all religions, all philosophies then guess what: You're an unbeliever in the ones you don't. Learn it. Love it. And live it.



Well...it is. Biblical faith is a rational faith because it's built upon knowing the object of that faith and having a personal relationship with that object. The fact that a major theme in the bible is love also supports my premise because of the three required components to love.



And if you don't believe that anthopomorphisms are requited figures of speech to help the finite mind to understand the infinite mind, then I would suggest such arrogance is paramount to making yourself out to be a god.



I do not judge you. You have only two judges. You, who have already judged yourself to be unworthy of God great gift salvation, and then Jesus Christ himself.



Restraint on what? You're upset because I poked some irreverent fun at Eastern "isms" with Hcap? But you never had any problem blaspheming the God of the bible every way but loose by constantly implying that he's either a liar or a fool or is not a personal God or he's incapable of getting his truth straight, or blaming him for screwing up creation, etc., etc., etc. Where has your restraint been on all your fallacious arguments or criticisms, most of which have been non sequiturs to boot? How have you bridled all your sophistries? I have borne very patiently with you and other skeptics here.



How about we make a deal: You present genuine, logically sound criticisms or arguments against orthodox Christianity and I'll respect whatever it is you think you believe? (And I don't even know what that may be because you have, yet, to make any cogent, coherent statements on what it is that you believe and why.)

Boxcar
P.S. Have you considered founding a new religion -- maybe something along the lines of the Bahai faith -- perhaps you could call it the T.U.B. Foundation Temple of Universal Believism? That way I'd be hard-pressed to call you an unbeliever.

I suspected that the real Boxcar was not the one who wrote post #2511...that was just an aberration. THIS is the real Boxcar right here...the one who rolls on the floor laughing when he talks about the religious beliefs of others.

Tell me something smart guy...

You accuse me of blaspheming against God; haven't you noticed that the only person here who has used the words "liar" and "fool" when referring to God or Jesus...has been YOU?

When did I blaspheme against God?

When I said that a benevolent and ever-loving God would never commit the heinous crimes that the Old Testament has attributed to him?

You want me to provide you with "genuine, logically sound criticisms or arguments against Orthodox Christianity"?

Okay...I'll accommodate you...

You expect me to believe that God is a killer...just because the bible tells me so?

I should believe that God handed out death sentences to people whose only crime was that they did not rest on the Sabbath day...or that he killed all the first-born children and animals of Egypt -- just because the Pharaoh refused to set the Israelites free?

Our "heavenly father" supposedly killed thousands of children just to prove a point...and you wonder why people have a hard time believing that these stories are actually true?

Is this argument of mine "logically sound" enough for you?

This is the "rational faith" that you ask me to embrace?

These are only STORIES, Boxcar...and only a disturbed mind could ever believe that God would be capable of crimes of this magnitude.

You believe that God indeed committed these acts...and then you accuse ME of blasphemy?

You've clearly lost your mind...and so have I, evidently...for continuing this conversation with you.