Religious

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Huh? Of course man decides. Everyone has the capacity to freely make that choice within the constraints of his or her evil nature. Man's will is as free as the Creator's. In God's case, he cannot sin due to his holy nature. In man's case, he cannot not sin due to his evil nature. In both cases, Freedom has it's clearly delineated boundaries.

Doesn't that conflict with your earlier statements that who is and who is not elected is decided by God before they are born?

[Show Me the Wire]

Originally Posted by Actor

But what does "to be holy" mean. "United with Him" in what way?

Why create a 13.3 thousand billion billion billion cubic light year universe to address the population of a 0.0004 cubic light second planet?

Why completely ignore half of the population since Christ lived. Why completely ignore 14 out of 15 of all the humans who have ever lived?

Why punish the whole of humanity for the disobedience of two of their number? They could not have known disobedience was wrong since they had not yet eaten of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. In order to know disobedience was wrong they had to disobey? It's a lose-lose situation for humanity.

First, humanity is not being punished. Humanity is suffering the consequences of breaking communion with the creative force, God.

Secondly, nobody is being ignored. The message has been spread and it is up to each individual to decide what to do with the message. If groups of individual's have been isolated and did not receive the message they still may be united with God, since Jesus re-established communion between God and all of humanity for all time, even for the humans living before Christ.

Christianity believes in a transcendent God, outside of time and space and everything is the present for our transcendent God.

Its not a lose-lose situation, see above.

If you want to ask questions about punishment theology, which by the way, is not the traditional teaching of Christianity, ask our resident theologian to defend his position about man's evil nature, which deserves pain, suffering and every misery God can pile on. Please, do not ask me to defend a position I don't adhere to or believe in as a truth.

[Show Me the Wire]

Originally Posted by Actor

Doesn't that conflict with your earlier statements that who is and who is not elected is decided by God before they are born?

Of course it does.

[Show Me the Wire]

Why create a 13.3 thousand billion billion billion cubic light year universe to address the population of a 0.0004 cubic light second planet?

Actor:

I don't know if we are the only creation, made in the image and likeness of God, according to our human ancestors, in the whole universe or in other universes. Thus, I cannot answer that question.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by boxcar

In other words, he "saves" himself from that pesky, gasping mind.

Funny how man must save himself from what he is. In Buddhism, the mind is the culprit. in Gnosticism, the body (materialism) is the culprit. In Christianity, however, man is the culprit -- the whole man due to what man is in his essence, i.e. sinful.

So, tell me...what caused the Taliban to murder 120+ children recently. Their mind, their body or their nature?

It's pointless to debate you on these things, because your inquiries are never sincere. You ask questions about other religions just so you can find something new to ridicule...as if your own religious beliefs aren't ridiculous enough. I am not a Buddhist...but I have studied -- and practiced -- Buddhism for a number of years. When the Buddhists say "mind"...they mean more than just the "brain" -- which is what we westerners refer to when we use the word.

Let me ask you a question concerning the last part of your comment above, Boxcar:

If the recent Taliban shooting spree was just a result of man's inherent sinful nature...then why don't we see atrocities of this type taking place constantly? Why don't ALL men go around shooting little kids? What is it that has enabled most human beings to largely harness their "evil nature"...and avoid the extremes of criminal conduct? Is it religion that stops man from committing heinous criminal acts on a regular basis? Is it God? Why do some human beings show a more "refined" nature than others seem to possess...even though "religion" does not play a part in their lives?

And how can I believe that "all men are evil by nature", when there have been plenty of exemplary men throughout human history -- and they weren't even Christians?

Was Jesus Christ a better example for humanity than, say, Albert Schweitzer?

[Show Me the Wire]

Originally Posted by boxcar

So our flesh and blood is evil?

You are a self-proclaimed authority about R.C.C. teachings, so you tell me.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by Show Me the Wire

(A)humanity is not being punished. (B)Humanity is suffering the consequences of breaking communion with the creative force, God.

What's the difference?

How did man "break communion with God"? I.e., are we to take the Edenic story literally or is it allegorical?

Originally Posted by Show Me the Wire

Secondly, nobody is being ignored. The message has been spread and it is up to each individual to decide what to do with the message. If groups of individual's have been isolated and did not receive the message they still may be united with God, since Jesus re-established communion between God and all of humanity for all time, even for the humans living before Christ.

I would seem that those isolated and not receiving the message have the better deal.

Eskimo: 'If I did not know about God and sin, would I go to hell?'
Priest: 'No, not if you did not know.'
Eskimo: 'Then why did you tell me?' - Annie Dillard

What about a child raised as an atheist? Is he/she to be held accountable for his/her unbelief which comes from the teachings of his parents? I.e., does his contact with the gospel through a source which teaches him that it is fiction count as receiving the message?

What about an 18th century Polynesian who is told by a missionary that having sex in the female superior position (or doggie style) will send him to hell. Is he to be damned because he thinks that idea is BS (which it is) and so concludes that the rest of the message is also BS?

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by Actor

What's the difference?

How did man "break communion with God"? I.e., are we to take the Edenic story literally or is it allegorical?

I would seem that those isolated and not receiving the message have the better deal.



What about a child raised as an atheist? Is he/she to be held accountable for his/her unbelief which comes from the teachings of his parents? I.e., does his contact with the gospel through a source which teaches him that it is fiction count as receiving the message?

What about an 18th century Polynesian who is told by a missionary that having sex in the female superior position (or doggie style) will send him to hell. Is he to be damned because he thinks that idea is BS (which it is) and so concludes that the rest of the message is also BS?

Or...what about the 21st century teenagers, who read the "Good Book" and decide that condoning slavery and stoning people to death for the "crime" of adultery is BS...and then conclude that the rest of the "Good Book's" message must also be BS?

Can we blame them?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Show Me the Wire

You are a self-proclaimed authority about R.C.C. teachings, so you tell me.

I thought we were discussing the beliefs of the Eastern Orthodox Church?

So, what is your answer? Is flesh and blood evil? Or does evil proceed from within the heart of man, as Jesus taught? (Here's a novel idea: Maybe God [somehow] had the inside skinny on the condition of man's heart which is why He promised to give a new heart to his New Covenant people. Whaddya think about that?)

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

It's pointless to debate you on these things, because your inquiries are never sincere. You ask questions about other religions just so you can find something new to ridicule...as if your own religious beliefs aren't ridiculous enough. I am not a Buddhist...but I have studied -- and practiced -- Buddhism for a number of years. When the Buddhists say "mind"...they mean more than just the "brain" -- which is what we westerners refer to when we use the word.

Let me ask you a question concerning the last part of your comment above, Boxcar:

If the recent Taliban shooting spree was just a result of man's inherent sinful nature...then why don't we see atrocities of this type taking place constantly? Why don't ALL men go around shooting little kids? What is it that has enabled most human beings to largely harness their "evil nature"...and avoid the extremes of criminal conduct? Is it religion that stops man from committing heinous criminal acts on a regular basis? Is it God? Why do some human beings show a more "refined" nature than others seem to possess...even though "religion" does not play a part in their lives?

And how can I believe that "all men are evil by nature", when there have been plenty of exemplary men throughout human history -- and they weren't even Christians?

Was Jesus Christ a better example for humanity than, say, Albert Schweitzer?

"Exemplary" by whose standards? By the world's standards? By the standards of other sinners?

And I have addressed this issue of who primarily restrains evil in the world on previous occasions. But here is the primary text once again:

2 Thess 2:7
7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.
NASB

The only reason why planet earth isn't pure hell is due to the Holy Spirit restraining evil in the world. In hell, there will be no such restraint.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Show Me the Wire

First, humanity is not being punished. Humanity is suffering the consequences of breaking communion with the creative force, God.

Secondly, nobody is being ignored. The message has been spread and it is up to each individual to decide what to do with the message. If groups of individual's have been isolated and did not receive the message they still may be united with God, since Jesus re-established communion between God and all of humanity for all time, even for the humans living before Christ.

Prove this nonsense from scripture.

Actor, what ShowMe is preaching is a false gospel. Pure rubbish.

Christianity believes in a transcendent God, outside of time and space and everything is the present for our transcendent God.

Its not a lose-lose situation, see above.

If you want to ask questions about punishment theology, which by the way, is not the traditional teaching of Christianity, ask our resident theologian to defend his position about man's evil nature, which deserves pain, suffering and every misery God can pile on. Please, do not ask me to defend a position I don't adhere to or believe in as a truth.

Jesus taught that man is evil and only God alone is good.

And God does execute temporal punishment against sinners. See the Flood. See the entire history of apostate Israel. See how God used Israel to drive out the seven wicked nations from the Promised Land of Canaan. See the destruction of the temple, the dismantling of the Old Covenant and the dispersions of the Jews from their homeland in 70 A.D.

Boxcar
P.S. See the entire bible that will refute your nonsense.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Or...what about the 21st century teenagers, who read the "Good Book" and decide that condoning slavery and stoning people to death for the "crime" of adultery is BS...and then conclude that the rest of the "Good Book's" message must also be BS?

Can we blame them?

"Teenagers" long before 21st century raised all the above objections. There is nothing new under the sun.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by boxcar

"Teenagers" long before 21st century raised all the above objections. There is nothing new under the sun.

What would YOU tell those teenagers if you were "evangelizing" to them, Boxcar?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

Doesn't that conflict with your earlier statements that who is and who is not elected is decided by God before they are born?

No, it doesn't. How does it conflict? Fallen man freely chooses, according to his evil nature, to remain in his state of rebellion against God. So, how does man unenviable condition conflict with God's grace which rescues (delivers) many from the imprisonment of that sinful nature? Explain, please.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

What would YOU tell those teenagers if you were "evangelizing" to them, Boxcar?

The same thing I have often told everyone here who has raised the same objections.

We could start with the "teenagers" trivializing God's holiness and exalting their own self-righteousness.