THOUGHTS ABOUT AMERICAN PHAROAH

[clocker7]

Originally Posted by Stillriledup

It does hurt his credentials if you're trying to argue he's top 5 or 10 all time. He has less than 10 lifetime wins, he only beat Older horses once, most of his wins were at equal weights. The majority of his Beyer figs are significantly lower than many all timers, his 'sheet' numbers are slower too, so if you want to place him ahead of horses who won many more lifetime starts than AP, has win streaks longer than AP has had races, beat older more than once, won a race out of the country (DWC), etc you have to come up with some other reason why he's better. I'm certainly willing to listen to any argument, but when you are arguing top 5 all time, that argument better be pretty darn good.

This sorta matches my thoughts.

AP can't be blamed for what he ran against. The 3 yo crop was suspect speedwise, and he beat the dregs of the class before. Still, his own speed/time ratings will be how he will be placed among the pantheon. (I also agree with another poster above that several of his races could have a few ticks faster, had he needed to exert himself.)

I don't mind enigmas like this. It makes the sport even more interesting.

[ILovetheInner]

Originally Posted by Rex Phinney

I've certainly thought about that. I wasn't born until 1980 so this is the first TC I've been around for. The thought crossed my mind that maybe to accomplish these things racing luck has to be on your side. Perhaps it's always like that and just no one mentions it 40 years later.

IMO that only goes so far. Secretariat, for all his grandness, had his detractors in the day. Slew most certainly did, until he was four. Forego won HOY repeatedly and has a grand resume, but a primary reason he is as iconic as he is is because they ran him. Huge weight, strips he couldn't handle. They ran him. Particularly in terms of off strips, he wasn't supposed to win those, but the people had come to see him. He was not Secretariat and he was not Slew, but you knew what he could do when odds were against him. That was his legend and the primary reason for his fame.

I don't think there is anything wrong with this. Where are Runhappy's critics? As far as I know, there are no heated debates. No separate Runhappy camps. Of course a lot due to "his" fault for gate habits and drifting and overall inexperience that should lose him races and yet he overcomes. And in the wake of it all, plenty thought he would not win the Breeders Cup (raises hand, lol) But he wins it, rating, and outgutting one of the most crusty, hard knocking and experienced horses in the land. And took another record. Really no room to be prickly about much.

The TC comes in batches, and if the next one has to ding dong or stumbles on the turn or gets shuffled back and comes on in the last second, I think we will see the difference. I think we see the contrast right now, when thinking of AP versus Runhappy sentiments. We just don't notice it, because no one is arguing about the latter.

[nijinski]

I think AP showed early he was special and to be able to do what he did and still win the BCC . Tremendous.
He missed the Juvey last year. .Nyquist wins it this year .
Pharoah breaks his maiden in a stakes race 121.48 ,
Nyquist won the same race , the Futurity 123.28 .
There were signs early of his greatness , focus and determination. Some of you
are just not getting and maybe won't until you wait for the next Triple Crown , Grand Slam winner .

[luisbe]

Originally Posted by EMD4ME

I gave him all his credit. He earned my respect yesterday.

However, to me his win still has an asterisk. (in terms of how great he is all time).

Does anyone here really believe he would have ran the same monstrous race if Liam's Map lead the field into the clubhouse turn AND AP had Beholder on his plank AND throw in another variable....Smooth Roller was somewhere else in the mix?

2 of those fled from the race while the other accused a diarrhea as soon as it saw AP walking next to the stall.
OTOH, guessing he might be like Bayern at 4 is an interested opinion acomodated to your thinking, I say he could have improved 10 lengths.

[Dark Horse]

Originally Posted by Dark Horse
The first ever Grand Slam winner. They'll be talking about that 200 years from now.

Originally Posted by Laminarman

200 years might be a stretch : )

It will be a trivia question in a space age Jeopardy. One of the contestants, knowing the answer, will bet everything. And lose. Because she spelled it 'Pharaoh'.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by Dark Horse

It will be a trivia question in a space age Jeopardy. One of the contestants, knowing the answer, will bet everything. And lose. Because she spelled it 'Pharaoh'.

Very good!

[LottaKash]

Originally Posted by nijinski

I think AP showed early he was special and to be able to do what he did and still win the BCC .Pharoah breaks his maiden in a stakes race 121.48 ,
.

Plus, in that 7f race, the splits were: 22.72 45.23 108.95 121.48

Basically, I am a Form & Foundation guy when doing the 3yos, so, as a 2yo I would say, that was a very solid foundation for a horse making only his 2d start...I would say, that was a very precocious maiden win and a sign of excellent early speed ability and suggests a solid future for the next year's adventures...

As it turned out, in each of his 3yo races there was a different story, speedwise, attached to each race....I think that the biggest problem is that AP never did have to fire the big early splits due to the makeup of the fields and track condition(s)... But I always believe and maintain that he had the "foundation" already built in if need be..

And, I truly believe, that in AP's loss in the Travers, his only downside all campaign long, was due to Form Cycle Fatigue, and he had just tailed off a bit, not in ability, but stamina, is all I saw...He was just a bit tired after those very strenuous TC winning effort(s)....Despite that, he ran his Travers bravely, and he was "there" at the end, just not in front, and not by much, but still a game race for a true Champion, that imo ,just wasn't at his best that day....

His authoritative win the BC bears this out, I think...

This guy just made "History", and a big perhaps, he is not the greatest of all time, but he sure is a "Legend" now, all the same... Whether anyone agrees with that, haha, or not.... You just can't take that away from this guy... He raced at 9 different tracks to boot, and overcame all of the diversity of them..

He was as game and brave in each and every one of his races as almost any horse that I have witnessed since 1962....

[nijinski]

Originally Posted by LottaKash

Plus, in that 7f race, the splits were: 22.72 45.23 108.95 121.48

Basically, I am a Form & Foundation guy when doing the 3yos, so, as a 2yo I would say, that was a very solid foundation for a horse making only his 2d start...I would say, that was a very precocious maiden win and a sign of excellent early speed ability and suggests a solid future for the next year's adventures...

As it turned out, in each of his 3yo races there was a different story, speedwise, attached to each race....I think that the biggest problem is that AP never did have to fire the big early splits due to the makeup of the fields and track condition(s)... But I always believe and maintain that he had the "foundation" already built in if need be..
And, I truly believe, that in AP's loss in the Travers, his only downside all campaign long, was due to Form Cycle Fatigue, and he had just tailed off a bit, not in ability, but stamina, is all I saw...He was just a bit tired after those very strenuous TC winning effort(s)....Despite that, he ran his Travers bravely, and he was "there" at the end, just not in front, and not by much, but still a game race for a true Champion, that imo ,just wasn't at his best that day....

His authoritative win the BC bears this out, I think...



This guy just made "History", and a big perhaps, he is not the greatest of all time, but he sure is a "Legend" now, all the same... Whether anyone agrees with that, haha, or not.... You just can't take that away from this guy... He raced at 9 different tracks to boot, and overcame all of the diversity of them..

He was as game and brave in each and every one of his races as almost any
horse that I have witnessed since 1962....

The Travers can be forgiven with as you said completing the TC campaign , Haskell , going back West and East again . I love watching his 2 yo Futurity Bob said he wore blinkers in his very first race , big mistake he said. Then he breaks his mdn in the stakes and crushes the field at 7 furlongs . He looked so much the same winning Saturday at 10 furlongs. So determined and focused . Going to miss him and I agree he will be a very deserving legend !

[nijinski]

Btw , just to add to some of his greatness . He has beaten fields from 7 to 12 furlongs .
Has been able to handle slopfests with full confidence and does not have have to bring his track with him that's aside from his Gr 1 and Classic wins .his resume will shine !

[Man o' War]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Easy now...don't forget that you are talking about a horse who was run down by the mighty Keen Ice...after getting softened up by the blazing Frosted. :

We all know now that he was a tired horse in that race due to his long triple crown campaign, he wasn’t right...

Originally Posted by thaskalos

And I would be very interested to know who those "numbers/pace experts on this forum" were...who predicted that the Pharoah would be "crushed" by the field that he faced yesterday.:

That EMDME guy, the one who gets in fights with people…..said AP would finish out of the money, but I admit his declaration was before all the supposed rabbits and pacesetters defected, so the actual field doesn’t quite fit in with the claim…my bad. But then, don’t you cancel your bets and reevaluate in the event of scratches?

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Nice try friend. Now...go back into hibernation.

Will do, love reading your posts by the way…

[Man o' War]

Originally Posted by zico20

You can't be serious with that bolded comment, can you. AP never ran fast early. Seattle Slew ran 109.2 in a mile and a half race. Yes, he lost to Exceller by a nose but Slew had tremendous early speed that AP could only dream of.

Would never say he had Slew’s speed or put him above the Slew. Was attempting to equate their similar running styles…sorry for the confusion

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by Man o' War

...love reading your posts by the way…

In that case...forget what I said about going back into hibernation. You are welcomed to stick around...

[Hoops McCann]

Originally Posted by Dark Horse

It will be a trivia question in a space age Jeopardy. One of the contestants, knowing the answer, will bet everything. And lose. Because she spelled it 'Pharaoh'.

Jeopardy doesn't penalize for misspelling. nice try

[Stillriledup]

One more thought about AP. His campaign and success was a big shot in the arm for 'racing' this was a horse who promised and delivered. To take hard triple crown summer and find a way to deliver that kind of message in the Classic was really special, it was incredible actually.

I'm far from the biggest Baffert fan but his handling of this horse was as good as it gets, not to mention the way he spoke to media and handled all the interview requests and whatnut, I would be surprised if he didnt have to deal with lots of requests from people for selfies with the horse as well as wanting to come by the barn to see the horse, we see the finished product but there's a LOT going on behind the scenes when you have a horse like this.

Great stuff from A(p) to Z.

[lansdale]

This may be posted elsewhere on the site, but I haven't seen it. Although Beyer sounds like he's more willing to admit AP to the pantheon than before, his case re Liam's Map seems completely specious. If he really had a chance to beat AP, doesn't he think Pletcher would have run him in the Classic?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sport...d0c_story.html