Ted Cruz

[Tom]

Originally Posted by horses4courses

Now I'm REALLY leaving the lights on tonight!

[Tom]

That's his METRIC side talking.
Plan B.....Mayor of Toronto.

[GameTheory]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

That was a really good article on the subject. It really cleared it up for me.

I think the argument that Cruz is ineligible is kinda strong. It certainly should be settled beforehand, because who knows what the court might say. Of course I think he has little chance of being the nominee and zero chance of being elected if he were, but it still should be settled so we don't have these dumb arguments about eligibility with every cycle.

In my mind, the key to the argument is that the presidency is a constitutionally defined job and one of the branches of government. So even if you have a law says explicitly that if you are foreign born of US citizens, you are to be designated "natural born citizen", that law is totally irrelevant. That applies to everybody and in all circumstances BUT determining presidential eligibility.

Why? Because...Congress can make no law to change the eligibility requirements of the presidency. That would be be overriding the Constitution and a breach of the separation of powers. Changing such requirements would require a constitutional amendment. Just as if they passed a law that said that president must be college educated, or something like that -- blatantly unconstitutional, right? So whatever definitions or traditions about who gets to be a citizen (that isn't a natural born citizen) that are in laws but not the Constitution itself don't apply, and can't apply to presidential eligibility. Presidential eligibility MUST be defined in the Constitution, and the Constitution only. (Put another way, it is only what the Constitution says about it that matters, nothing else. Except of course a supreme court decision interpreting what the Constitution says about it.)

So... it is up to the court to decide if "natural born" includes foreign born or not, BUT not because of any law. And then one has to ask...if it was supposed to include foreign born, then why was a law ever necessary to make them citizens also when it was already right there in the Constitution? So the very fact that there were/are laws specifying that foreign born to US citizen parents are to be considered natural born can actually be used as an argument that there is a single exception to that -- the president, where those laws constitutionally cannot apply.

[Tom]

I think the argument that Cruz is ineligible is kinda strong. It certainly should be settled beforehand, because who knows what the court might say.

This could be interesting......Hillary and Ted win the nominations, then, the courts find Ted ineligible and indict Hillary!

[Rookies]

Watching Faux from sunny, Ft. Myers.

WTF has happened to Megyn? She transformed herself into a beady eyed Raphael, with that creepy hair do & diamond eye black!

Ok... with boobs mind you!

[ebcorde]

in the supply room. I have a theory, Trump will pay off Ben's debt to keep him in the race. Ben is pissed off, Cruz better get a big belt buckle.

[ebcorde]

Originally Posted by Tom

This could be interesting......Hillary and Ted win the nominations, then, the courts find Ted ineligible and indict Hillary!

yeah, Back in the old days Natural Born citizenship was bestowed to the Father's Nationality. Women hardly had rights then, therefore IMHO the founding fathers would declare him a Cuban-Canadian That's all my idea , no jokes. I'm waiting for one of those TV lawyers to bring that up.

[xtb]

Originally Posted by GameTheory

I think the argument that Cruz is ineligible is kinda strong. It certainly should be settled beforehand, because who knows what the court might say. Of course I think he has little chance of being the nominee and zero chance of being elected if he were, but it still should be settled so we don't have these dumb arguments about eligibility with every cycle.

In my mind, the key to the argument is that the presidency is a constitutionally defined job and one of the branches of government. So even if you have a law says explicitly that if you are foreign born of US citizens, you are to be designated "natural born citizen", that law is totally irrelevant. That applies to everybody and in all circumstances BUT determining presidential eligibility.

Why? Because...Congress can make no law to change the eligibility requirements of the presidency. That would be be overriding the Constitution and a breach of the separation of powers. Changing such requirements would require a constitutional amendment. Just as if they passed a law that said that president must be college educated, or something like that -- blatantly unconstitutional, right? So whatever definitions or traditions about who gets to be a citizen (that isn't a natural born citizen) that are in laws but not the Constitution itself don't apply, and can't apply to presidential eligibility. Presidential eligibility MUST be defined in the Constitution, and the Constitution only. (Put another way, it is only what the Constitution says about it that matters, nothing else. Except of course a supreme court decision interpreting what the Constitution says about it.)

So... it is up to the court to decide if "natural born" includes foreign born or not, BUT not because of any law. And then one has to ask...if it was supposed to include foreign born, then why was a law ever necessary to make them citizens also when it was already right there in the Constitution? So the very fact that there were/are laws specifying that foreign born to US citizen parents are to be considered natural born can actually be used as an argument that there is a single exception to that -- the president, where those laws constitutionally cannot apply.

Is there a type of US citizenship other than "natural born" or "naturalized"? Since Ted Cruz was never "naturalized", and if he is not a "natural born" citizen, how did he become a US senator?

[Rookies]

Originally Posted by xtb

Is there a type of US citizenship other than "natural born" or "naturalized"? Since Ted Cruz was never "naturalized", and if he is not a "natural born" citizen, how did he become a US senator?

If a Cuban/Canuck cross breed like Raphael, is Kosher enough to be Prezzy, you might as well open it up to those Mooselimb refugees!

[TJDave]

Originally Posted by xtb

Is there a type of US citizenship other than "natural born" or "naturalized"? Since Ted Cruz was never "naturalized", and if he is not a "natural born" citizen, how did he become a US senator?

Natural born is not a requirement for Senator

[GameTheory]

Originally Posted by xtb

Is there a type of US citizenship other than "natural born" or "naturalized"? Since Ted Cruz was never "naturalized", and if he is not a "natural born" citizen, how did he become a US senator?

Well, that's the question. No question he is a citizen, but is he a natural born citizen? And crucially, even if he is to be considered a "natural born citizen" because there is a law that says he is to be considered as such even though born outside the U.S., if that is the only reason, then that's not good enough when it comes to the Presidency. He must be a natural born citizen ACCORDING TO THE CONSTITUTION, not any law passed by Congress. Reversing it, if Congress could pass a law right now saying that foreign born to US citizen parents are definitely NOT natural born citizens (and it were to be accepted by the courts as valid), then Ted Cruz is ineligible. Even though such a law would probably only be going forward to babies not yet born, it would show that since Congress has the ability to take away that "natural born" status (for foreign born babies, anyway), then it must have been granted by them in the first place rather than the Constitution. Which means that even if Ted Cruz is to be considered BY LAW natural born for every purpose, there is still one exception to that the law cannot touch -- the Constitutionally defined eligibility parameters of the Office of President. Congress cannot redefine the presidency through law -- that's the separation of powers.

As far as the naturalized thing, there is some question whether the law is instantly naturalizing you at birth without paperwork or whether you are actually natural born directly. But as I say, only if the court decides that foreign born babies to US Citizens are and have been natural born citizens past, present, and future (barring a Constitutional amendment in the future) ACCORDING TO THE CONSTITUTION -- and that no law Congress passes can alter that or regulate it because such a law would be unconstitutional -- is Ted Cruz eligible. And they could decide whatever they want. Even "birthright citizenship" for those born on US Soil -- we assume that is not debatable, right? But it could be. "Natural born citizen" has NO specific definition anywhere, and we certainly know from history that once in a while the court will just make shit up to make the law of the land what they think it ought to be. So what they might decide would be anyone's guess. (And the given reasons why would be anyone's guess -- this line of thinking I'm outlining might not even be considered at all.)

Who knows? But I think the idea that it is just a slam dunk that of course he is eligible is not true. It simply has never been decided.

[barahona44]

Originally Posted by xtb

Is there a type of US citizenship other than "natural born" or "naturalized"? Since Ted Cruz was never "naturalized", and if he is not a "natural born" citizen, how did he become a US senator?

There is a third type called derivitive which means when a parent becomes naturalized, any minor children, under the age of 18 who were also foreign born automatically become American citizens. As for Congress, you have to be an American citizen but not natIve born ; there are currently 17 foreign born members of Congress, 11 gained citizenship through birth, 3 from naturalization and three from derivation.

[xtb]

Originally Posted by TJDave

Natural born is not a requirement for Senator

You missed my point.

- Ted Cruz was not naturalized.
- He is a US senator.
- US citizenship is required to be a US senator.

If he is not a natural born US citizen, how did he become a US citizen?

[xtb]

Originally Posted by GameTheory

... and we certainly know from history that once in a while the court will just make shit up to make the law of the land what they think it ought to be.

So true.

[xtb]

Originally Posted by barahona44

There is a third type called derivitive which means when a parent becomes naturalized, any minor children, under the age of 18 who were also foreign born automatically become American citizens. As for Congress, you have to be an American citizen but not natIve born ; there are currently 17 foreign born members of Congress, 11 gained citizenship through birth, 3 from naturalization and three from derivation.

Thanks, that's what I was wondering.