KEEN ICE!!!

[EMD4ME]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

I was watching every replay and head on while at the track. After they ran the first few races on dirt I ran into one one of the DRF writers. I told him that if AP was my horse I'd tell Espinzoa to go to the lead and immediately take him out to the 3 path. At that stage 3-4 horses that ran inside had run below my expectations. The evidence got more mixed after the 7F races. My feeling going into the Travers was that it probably wasn't death in there, but you still want to be in the best path. So why be in there?

I'll do my analysis tomorrow when I'm fresh and have all my figures, but either way, I don't think that was the same horse we saw in the Haskell.

OMG....I was screaming dead rail from races 1-7. I'm with you on that.

Once race 8 was run, holy crap, what a CHANGE.

The track got SO much quicker. The rail got so much better. Race 8 saw a boat race of 3 horses running around on a carousel. The 11 was 7 wide on the backstretch but drew clear on the RAIL in the lane. The 4, who finished fourth, rallied inside in the lane into a 23.57 final Q. We didn't see that earlier in the day.

Race 8 was 2 full seconds faster than Race 7......Both for 3 year olds, both a G1. yes, race 7 was for fillies BUT 2 FULL SECONDS faster for race 8 for a horse who came from Ellis Park?

This is another reason why AP should not have lost. I truly believe NYRA changed the track for him AND he still lost.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by EMD4ME

This is the sweetest loss since Zenyatta was exposed by Blame.

How the hell was Zenyatta "exposed" by Blame?

If they ran that race 10 times...Zenyatta wins 8 of them.

[EMD4ME]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

How the hell was Zenyatta "exposed" by Blame?

If they ran that race 10 times...Zenyatta wins 8 of them.

And I say if they ran the race 10 times, Blame wins all 10.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by EMD4ME

And I say if they ran the race 10 times, Blame wins all 10.

Stick to the banking business, son...

[EMD4ME]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

How the hell was Zenyatta "exposed" by Blame?

If they ran that race 10 times...Zenyatta wins 8 of them.

4 horse front pack flying along by 8 or 9 lengths. Blame spent more energy staying close to the pace than the sucker upper in the race, Zenyatta.

She jogged for 1/2 a mile, threw herself into the race as it collapsed. No traffic. Inside out trip.

In my trip notes, that's called a perfect trip.

Take away her perfect trip, slower pace, some traffic, she loses every time.

Respectfully, that's why.

Why do I use the word exposed? Because, again, people spoke of her as the UNBEATABLE, broke Cigar's record, one and only Zenyatta.

Was she not exposed in her loss?

What is it with people today? AP ran 2nd, he tried, he was valiant, he was ganged up on, he had a fast 3rd quarter, someone dared challeneg him etc.?

Champions should win. Period, unless there is a major MAJOR effort in defeat (Seattle Slew's best race for example).

HE (AP) LOST, SHE (Z) LOST, with no excuse. That's why I compared the two.

I know you're a major Zenyatta fan, sorry to ruffle your feathers Thaskalos but it's what I see and feel.

[EMD4ME]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Stick to the banking business, son...

In this game it pays to be contrarian my friend...

Thanks for the giggle, after a long day, I can appreciate a good laugh.

[Stillriledup]

Originally Posted by EMD4ME

4 horse front pack flying along by 8 or 9 lengths. Blame spent more energy staying close to the pace than the sucker upper in the race, Zenyatta.

She jogged for 1/2 a mile, threw herself into the race as it collapsed. No traffic. Inside out trip.

In my trip notes, that's called a perfect trip.

Take away her perfect trip, slower pace, some traffic, she loses every time.

Respectfully, that's why.

Why do I use the word exposed? Because, again, people spoke of her as the UNBEATABLE, broke Cigar's record, one and only Zenyatta.

Was she not exposed in her loss?

What is it with people today? AP ran 2nd, he tried, he was valiant, he was ganged up on, he had a fast 3rd quarter, someone dared challeneg him etc.?

Champions should win. Period, unless there is a major MAJOR effort in defeat (Seattle Slew's best race for example).

HE (AP) LOST, SHE (Z) LOST, with no excuse. That's why I compared the two.

I know you're a major Zenyatta fan, sorry to ruffle your feathers Thaskalos but it's what I see and feel.

I'm going to go against you here, respectfully of course, and say that mentioning Seattle Slew means to me that you're not really taking into consideration the fragile nature of the modern tbred. What AP did today wouldn't have flown 40 years ago, but his loss today has to be taken in context with the era, the greatness of decades ago was much different, the breed is weaker in todays game and more inconsistent, we can't hold AP to the "1970s standard" of greatness, it's not fair to him to do so.

[cj]

Originally Posted by EMD4ME

Forgive me for cherishing his loss. If I though he was a Champion, I would be crying for his loss. I don't think he is one.

He is already a champion, champion 2yo. He'll also be champion 3yo. He'll be Horse of the Year also. Nearly every single champion has losses on its record.

Sadly, he won't run at 4. He might not even run again at 3. So, we'll never really know. It won't be any different with horses like him unless we happen to get a Triple Crown winning gelding. Such is the game today, which is sad.

[highnote]

Originally Posted by cj

He is already a champion, champion 2yo. He'll also be champion 3yo. He'll be Horse of the Year also. Nearly every single champion has losses on its record.

Sadly, he won't run at 4. He might not even run again at 3. So, we'll never really know. It won't be any different with horses like him unless we happen to get a Triple Crown winning gelding. Such is the game today, which is sad.

I was discussing HOY with a friend by email tonight.

What if Honor Code wins the Jockey Club Gold Cup and the BC Classic beating the best horses in the world and earning bigger speed ratings than AP, would AP still get HOY?

My friend pointed out that "Dances with Wolves" beat "Goodfellas" for Best Picture and also "Forrest Gump" beat "Pulp Fiction". His point was that sometimes not winning can be cooler than the alternative.

[cj]

Originally Posted by highnote

I was discussing HOY with a friend by email tonight.

What if Honor Code wins the Jockey Club Gold Cup and the BC Classic beating the best horses in the world, would AP still get HOY?

I think so, but stranger things have happened. He'd have 4 G1s and a G2. American Pharoah would have 5 G1s and a G2 and a Triple Crown, first since 1978. That is going to be tough to beat when humans vote.

[Stillriledup]

Originally Posted by highnote

I was discussing HOY with a friend by email tonight.

What if Honor Code wins the Jockey Club Gold Cup and the BC Classic beating the best horses in the world and earning bigger speed ratings than AP, would AP still get HOY?

My friend pointed out that "Dances with Wolves" beat "Goodfellas" for Best Picture and also "Forrest Gump" beat "Pulp Fiction". His point was that sometimes not winning can be cooler than the alternative.

I'm pretty sure the trophy is in the mail already.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by EMD4ME

4 horse front pack flying along by 8 or 9 lengths. Blame spent more energy staying close to the pace than the sucker upper in the race, Zenyatta.

She jogged for 1/2 a mile, threw herself into the race as it collapsed. No traffic. Inside out trip.

In my trip notes, that's called a perfect trip.

Take away her perfect trip, slower pace, some traffic, she loses every time.

Respectfully, that's why.

Why do I use the word exposed? Because, again, people spoke of her as the UNBEATABLE, broke Cigar's record, one and only Zenyatta.

Was she not exposed in her loss?

What is it with people today? AP ran 2nd, he tried, he was valiant, he was ganged up on, he had a fast 3rd quarter, someone dared challeneg him etc.?

Champions should win. Period, unless there is a major MAJOR effort in defeat (Seattle Slew's best race for example).

HE (AP) LOST, SHE (Z) LOST, with no excuse. That's why I compared the two.

I know you're a major Zenyatta fan, sorry to ruffle your feathers Thaskalos but it's what I see and feel.

When you say that "Champions should win, PERIOD!"...it's hard to take you seriously. I've been almost as critical of the Pharoah as you've been...but I would never expect a horse to keep winning all its races in order to be considered a "champion". Long losing streaks are rare...simply because they ALL lose. These are not machines...they are living and breathing creatures.

After the Haskell, you were telling us how impressed you had gotten to be with the Pharoah. And now you've put all that aside...and you are delighting in the horse's defeat. Come on...

[cj]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

When you say that "Champions should win, PERIOD!"...it's hard to take you seriously. I've been almost as critical of the Pharoah as you've been...but I would never expect a horse to keep winning all its races in order to be considered a "champion". Long losing streaks are rare...simply because they ALL lose. These are not machines...they are living and breathing creatures.

After the Haskell, you were telling us how impressed you had gotten to be with the Pharoah. And now you've put all that aside...and you are delighting in the horse's defeat. Come on...

He's being so ridiculous I felt the need to defend Zenyatta...ME!

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by cj

He's being so ridiculous I felt the need to defend Zenyatta...ME!

I NOTICED THAT!

[Cratos]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

Frosted cooked AP's goose and set it up.

The legend of Saratoga continues.

No he didn't, American Paroah ran a good race and he made two "moves" which is exceptional and he would have had to make the rarity of 3 "moves" to win.